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June 2008 
Grassley Six
Theway2k
I wonder why Senator Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) is asking for financial records from a targeted group of Ministries beyond the scope of what is requested by the IRS. In Washington DC Grassley, a member of the Senate Finance Committee is investigating what has become known as the Grassley Six:
Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Benny Hinn, Creflo and Taffi Dollar, Bishop Eddie Long, Joyce and David Meyer, and Randy and Paula White.
I would get the picture if the Democratic Party controlled Committee was pushing for the investigation because the (nearly) Godless Left does not appreciate strong Biblical value minded Christians to be an influence in politics.
Do notice I said Christians, apparently it is politically correct for Mohammedan's to spout politics and retain their 501(c)3 non-profit donation status.
Anyway Senator Grassley definitely is a Slanted Right Conservative; therefore I have to believe he has acquired some information on the Grassley Six. The information must not be the smoking gun that has convinced Grassley to investigate financial abuse of these Ministries. I did see an MSM piece on Benny Hinn photo-documenting a lavish lifestyle which the MSM piece was financed by Hinn's 501(c)3 Ministry. I do recall the network that did the piece rudely harassed Hinn in public because Hinn would never agree to an interview. The program would show public questioning Hinn and trap him into answers that there was no way Hinn was prepared to answer. Hinn would give off the top his mind answers and if it did not jive with documented information the program already had, a clip would follow with facts and figures staining Hinn's reputation.
I do understand the motivation behind the Slanted Left MSM. These six Ministers that have gained the appellation of the Grassley Six are all Ministers that do way more than preach prosperity. These are Faith people who believe in Divine Healing and Divine Intervention via the Biblical Gifts of the Spirit. This is a practice that many Christians antagonistic to this literal form of Faith have labeled heresy. What better way to put a dent into faith then to show these Ministers as liars or living the high life on non-profit tax deductable donations.
I must give Grassley credit though. If the Grassley six are living lavishly on Ministry funds rather than the salary from the Ministry coupled with investments, then there is a taint on the image of Christ. That would invalidate that whole teaching of faith, healing, miracles and prosperity to many who have followed this movement for years.
Can you tell I am one of those followers? The Bible is the Bible and it is true rather or not a few Ministers treated their charitable donations as their personal funds. I still believe in the power of God for all the Faith movement teachings because it is taken directly from the Bible; however I do believe some have become too engulfed in materialism and comfort rather than setting an example of Kingdom of God living that Jesus preached.
I pray Grassley's investigation exonerates the Grassley Six of any wrong doing. Would that not slap the accusers on the Left? If or there is any wrong doing revealed I pray it is in ethics not in the rule of law. That way many good men and women of God can reassess what is personal money or what is Ministry money and still be a benefit for the Kingdom of God.
Now one thing that is a pet peeve of mine is this ludicrous infringement the government has made for Christian Ministries to be a Godly influence in elections. If a Ministry is discerned to be making public endorsements of candidates the IRS will swoop down and remove their 501(c)3 status. Thus it is a hinky way allowing free speech yet punishing the life blood of a Ministries existence.
I don't know how Kenneth Copeland swung it be he had Mike Huckabee on his weekly show. I did not have the chance to watch the TV programming; however I intend to catch it on the Internet. Copeland's Believer's Voice of Victory broadcasts can be seen at the Kenneth Copeland Website. The cool thing I liked about Baptist Minister and Presidential Candidate Huckabee is that he is taking a public stand with the Copelands as Grassley's investigation proceeds. This is interesting for Baptists and Pentecostal/Charismatic Christian do not see eye to eye on many theological issues. That means Huckabee is willing to take a political hit while his poll numbers are actually rising. I have heard some bad things about Huckabee ethics wise when he was Governor of Arkansas; however it takes a man to stand tall when a friend is under a Senate investigation.
I will close with this thought. It is wrong to impose Freedom of Speech restriction on Christian Ministries under the delusion that the Constitution's First Amendment proclaims there is a separation of Church and State. There is NO SUCH LANGUAGE in the First Amendment.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Notice the First Amendment says that Congress will make no law respecting an establishment of a religion (i.e. No State Church) or the prohibiting the free exercise thereof (i.e. the Federal Government cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion). The Federal Government is prohibiting the free exercise of religion when the IRS is used as a tool to keep various Christian denominations from taking political stands.
The whole so-called "Separation of Church and State" concept comes from a letter delivered by President Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Church using that phrase.
HELLO the letter is not part of the Constitution of the United States of America.
Access: Public
I'm not a big fan of many people on the right, but what he's doing is asking for records from these absolute freaks who are praying on the poor, driving around in diamond encrusted Cadillacs and eating caviar off of the bellies of strippers. I say go for it, although a big part of me also says “Hey, if you want to send money to some guy named “Creflo Dollar”, then you go right ahead. A fool and his money are soon parted.
I know you are correct over the years of flamboyant Christians misusing funds for immoral purposes preached by the very Preachers collecting the money. Off the top of my head the most recent have been Ted Haggard (homosexual), Roberts Liardon (homosexual), Jim Bakker (Adultery, tax evasion) and on the Catholic side - Pederastic Priests.
These are issues Paul and others address in the New Testament.
Of the Grassley Six I feel I can vouch for the married couples: The Copelands; The Dollars, The Meyers and the Whites.
Benny Hinn has been a man of God still greatly used in signs and miracles but I do get the sense that the love of money has tainted the spiritual gifts the Holy Spirit has entrusted to him.
I simply know very little about Eddie Long to make a comment; however the married couples I mentioned above definitely do not participate in elicite sex as your “stripper” inference appears to portray.
The prosperity thing though, if any of these Ministers have used non-profit corporation money for lavish entertainment and personal pleasure, they have stepped over the line.
However if a lavish lifestyle is part of an earned salary or personal investments, that is none of the publc's business. Personal budgets are between a person and God on how it is spent.
If the Grassley Six investigation pans out to show some impropriety, I pray the proper fines are issued; however not the end of these ministries that have brought so many into knowing Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Before we become to self-righteous in judgment remember that David - a man after God's own heart - first committed adultery, then tried to persuade the husband to have intercourse to hide the child of the infidelity and when that did not work. David had the husband killed and made it look like an action of war. Yet David is one of the greats of the OT as one who followed God for his choices in life.
Human's screw up. The Godly humans forsake hubris and adjust their lives to be in line with God and His Word.
We all sin. I got that. I just don't think you need a jet with a gold toilet to convey that to people. I was raised Roman Catholic……even went to a Jesuit High School and a Catholic Univeristy. I had enough Aquinas to last a life time. I like the quiet, humble christians. It's much cooler.
I am willing to bet that Jim Bakker's transgression of gold toilets and air conditioned dog houses is not applicable to most of the Grassley Six. If there is a misuse of funds it is in the nature of personal perks that a rich individual has the right to enjoy from their personal finances. The problem for the Grassley Six is that Ministries funds may have been utilized for personal use knowingly or unknowingly or both. Most of these guys are meticulous records keepers so if a stain is found by a Senate investigation it will be by merely forcing the books to be opened.
As to quiet Christianity - that is cool. I personally think there is a time and a place for quiet, loud and in between. That is probably because my back ground is Pentecostal/Charismatic.
Creflo Dollar has a jet. He says he NEEDS that jet to spread the word….
Maybe he does.
Many Pentecostal/Charismatic Evangelicals have a personal Jet. That certainly is not misuse of funds for it more often than not used for their ministry. Some of these guys have donated their jet to evangelists with growing budgets to handle the expense to believe for a new one.
Jets provide a quicker mode of transportation to minister else where. There is no dependency on flight schedules, delays, cancellation etc.
What kind of jet do you think Jesus would have?
Dear Jesus on the earthly plain walked through walls and on water and spoke to the Father. Being both God and man in one nature has its perks.
Think back to the triumphal entry into Jerusalem - today known as Palm Sunday. The mode of transportation that day - a colt of a donkey - was actually considered high class transportation and was honored with costly cloths and symbolic palms spread before him. That was not an entrance of a man in poverty but a soon coming king.
Hey, I'm not trying to mess with you. I see that you're a devout christian, and I can respect that……..however I will hit you with a good question if you don't mind…..
Usually the answer is something like “Well…..it's not that I WANT it…..but it does say right here….”
Q: Do you believe in your heart that good people, who live good, caring, just lives………..people who live great lives BUT, do not accept Jesus AS GOD……..do you believe those people are destined to burn in hell?
That is a trickier question than Christians and non-Christians alike would admit. I am a huge believer that anyone may KNOW Christ as Savior at his last breath without even telling anyone. It is the Mind of God that knows. This includes the horribly evil and the amazing good at heart.
The former could represent Hitler (who many adamantly believe is burning in Hell), the latter could represent someone like Gandhi (Who many believe there is no way this fellow could miss Heaven).
I believe if one's dying breath rejects Christ as Savior the incarnated Son of God, yes I believe Hell is their destination.
Union with God in Heaven is not about how many sins or lack of sins one has committed; it is being one with the Creator to accomplish the purpose the Creator has designed for His creation (whatever that might be). It is the Blood of Christ that makes one good, thus a sinful life can be washed white as snow.
In the reality of God's Realm it is really irrelevant what I believe about the eternal destiny of others for I am not the judge (Thank God).
My part is to share the Good News of Christ's Deliverance of Humanity from darkness for one to choose the transference into the Kingdom of Light. My part for myself is to not screw up and whatever I sin I may stumble into is to pray the Blood of Jesus and Confess to God and never allow bitterness or a worldly temperament to cause me to choose to reject God.
The answer to your question is impossible to answer with a “yes or no.”
In anticipation of the next difficult question that perplexes Christians and non-Christians alike: Yes I believe children go to Heaven, even if they are not baptized.
What about people who live in remote places and never got to even HEAR about Jesus…..
MOST everyone I ask this question to……..the “are they going to hell” question……play avoidance……and I'm not trying to paint you into a corner, but you too…….by saying “this is an impossible question”……….I mean….no it isn't….
You seem to have focused on what someone does on their deathbed. And your focus seems to be much more hinged on that “Do you think Jesus is God” part and NOT the “how do you live your life” part…..
I was raised Roman Catholic, and no matter how MUCH I'm a christian, so to speak, I believe that God is much more interested in how you live your life, and I do get a bit upset at christians who play that “Jesus or hell” card. It's flirts with fundamentalism and it also has opened to door for an unhealthy blending of church and state.
Actually how you live your life is important. Even Christians must answer - good or bad - at the Last Judgment. The thing that separates the Sheep and the Goats is the Blood of Jesus that (as the old Pentecostal song goes) washes white as snow.
It is all about God so loving the world that He gave His only begotten (God incarnate) Son to die an unjustified death that all humanity might be delivered from the darkness of the Evil One and transferred into the Light of His dear Son. It is all about being back in right standing (i.e. righteousness) with the Creator.
BTW, did you know that hell was not created for humanity? Hell was created for the rebel Lucifer (name when a good Arch Angel) whow became the Adversary or Satan (name after became a fallen Angel) and the third of the Angels Satan deceived into joining his rebellion.
Any humans that actually make to hell is because something in their rejects God in favor of Satan. This is why I do not judge. A seemingly excellent good man has chosen separation from God if he makes hell.
I am not a Universalist but some might think so. I believe you have to try really hard to make hell. In Ephesians when Paul speaks of Jesus going to the Underworld or hell after His death on the Cross, Jesus battled Satan because there was NO legitimate reason for Him to be housed there. Jesus openly humiliated Satan in repudiation of His unjust death in the flesh.
Then Paul says Jesus took captivity captive and ascended on High. I believe the Good News of Deliverance was offered to the pre-crucified dead. Now I know most believe that was only the Jews in Paradise which was housed dimensionally in the lower parts, but that does not make sense. The Bible speaks of the blood of Abel crying from the earth against Cain. Abel was not a Jew. He was not even a son of Abraham.
Now I know many of my fellow Christians (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant (and the various denominations of Protestantism) might stone me for this, but I believe some how some way every single human being will have heard the Good News of the Deliverance of Christ in this life or the next. Then that human being (rather in this life or the next) will have to choose life in Christ (the first born from the dead to a Resurrection Life) or choose the Second Death - eternal separation from God.
Nonetheless I still believe there is a hell to shun and a Heaven to gain. If that card gains someone Heaven - Glory to God.
Also I might irritate you, I suspect you define me as a fundamentalist. I believe the Word of God as in the Bible are the Divine Words of God.
This is where the secularists like to point out how rough the Law of the OT is. Then I have to point out that much of the consequences of the Law is fulfilled in the Redemption of Christ. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1)
However a Christian or non-Christian who chooses to live this life in unrepentant sin, separates them self from the benefits of being a joint-heir with Christ. This could lead the consequences of being under the darkness of the god of this world (or age). That is when bad things happen to good and bad people. (The rain falls on the good and the bad)
I believe you are right about another thing. It is unhealthy to blend Church and State. But I do not believe the State excludes the practice of individuals of the principle faith of the community. Thus I believe in prayer in school. The Ten Commandments on Court Buildings. Nativity scenes on public property. And so on.
If the principle population of a community is atheistic, then sure celebrate the winter solstice or whatever. Or if the principle faith of a community is Islam, then the call to prayer from a mosque or the community celebration of Ramadan.
If the community is mixed: a consensus for the community should be agreed upon.
Whatever the case may be, the principle Faith of a community or the nation is the underlying heritage of a nation's culture. To forcefully remove the influence of that faith to make secularism happy is wrong.
So you're saying that if someone lives a good life, but does not accept Jesus AS God, they can still enter heaven.
Nope. I said I believe everyone will the Gospel of Deliverance by the Savior Jesus Christ and will make a choice. Choosing life is choosing Christ and ergo God, choosing to reject God is separation and the second death ergo eternal separation from God.
Oh good. For a minute there I thought you would write something confusing.
I don't know if you are being facetious or complimentary. I'll take the later.
Sorry, but I'm pretty darn facetious so what I'll do is re-ask the question, because this is how it usually goes when I ask it………it's sort of avoidance….
Do YOU believe in YOUR heart…….that people who live good lives, but who do NOT accept JESUS AS GOD……do YOU believe that they go to hell?
yes because they that choice. In the last days ignorance will not be an excuse. A good person who led a good life and has heard the Good News and rejects Christ, then there is something off about that person's goodness. Rejection of Christ is a choice not to go to Heaven not a forced issue from God.